X-Authentication-Warning:	delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f
X-Recipient:	geda-user AT delorie DOT com
X-Original-DKIM-Signature:	v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
	d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
	h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references
	:mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent;
	bh=mSf72SjMJg2lp9v7SK/hr1xNpw5dLle+X46OxdD+6wU=;
	b=zTpASaeG93qwtdkFqqhkq2DmI59uUrRfFPhKmpUuv3zLFqveW+iqooFSJ1+PL+7wRl
	dG3DPCt5K0/hQzTO79T4Zlvn7Zhdd6mQpEIUfWcp0Z9V9e8sZwZTVtloV2GxohJ+At/F
	GdQExVyvfqZNn3s6AGg/WkoxfEcKDY9bopx4MyPlHI8veaGWLLxdUqZ4yeeNcD9Oi+w1
	tljZcKxFKicpoIVk4d3Cxcy2/kKvfpks2c17QuLZFanIJcazgjeidE6QNVfY5GBa6XgS
	yhxjqRpmm3Hfs9ihtVkXzuP63uKZGhBCUD2jhQsjIYu5qqV8vBUny6UIVImlor2iVfb/
	JLyw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature:	v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
	d=1e100.net; s=20130820;
	h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to
	:references:mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent;
	bh=mSf72SjMJg2lp9v7SK/hr1xNpw5dLle+X46OxdD+6wU=;
	b=ajMXoD7MXk3Tq1SmmQx9Iptq9cv5uESMNEG7Kszm6bFEKQXxcN21g40mai6DFOFj9c
	a+9R9ywJnP2ENdUSUhyvLisRonB9/cS5Zsm5vFvwIKd1L5TS6vPcXLVY4390jYBLt1P8
	xEGaz8NPCmL0HriQztCAiNxIpz+OUEOQITGyD35exiG6t8r0TgKm/CTJ/1FlTWBZvjdf
	wVswnxPjQRiob3AiVMSKFpAofeF4XK48sCIPa5/ZD4AaFGGJVmAcbLJdpyEzwscmff2q
	sZa9DV6G524VaObkEolqE2oZewmEAnKCj9u1P0MCaHhP85L6eZ9kFlrcvq9Lcf/PzVco
	63Lg==
X-Gm-Message-State:	AEkoouvZJ+xmTu1YniUO5gsR1PXUgu+x0x6rb3Qz7Ic8CMfR5lfEYb8xtqklHFZF3i/p9g==
X-Received:	by 10.25.15.98 with SMTP id e95mr4189879lfi.55.1469257045580;
	Fri, 22 Jul 2016 23:57:25 -0700 (PDT)
Date:	Sat, 23 Jul 2016 09:57:23 +0300
From:	"Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
To:	gEDA users mailing list <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
Subject:	Re: [geda-user] [OT] ngspice integration in KiCad
Message-ID:	<20160723065723.GC17595@localhost.localdomain>
Mail-Followup-To:	gEDA users mailing list <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
References:	<CANqhZFwC48g07MUY411a20C5oipkmmkzUimhz8OgvL2Thi-yDg AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>
	<20160722171754 DOT GB17595 AT localhost DOT localdomain>
	<CAM2RGhRjABmejtuSz1PbGFFF+EHhznGGTODoh0bu2y4FJM=Cbw AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>
MIME-Version:	1.0
In-Reply-To:	<CAM2RGhRjABmejtuSz1PbGFFF+EHhznGGTODoh0bu2y4FJM=Cbw@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent:	Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12)
Reply-To:	geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Errors-To:	nobody AT delorie DOT com
X-Mailing-List:	geda-user AT delorie DOT com
X-Unsubscribes-To:	listserv AT delorie DOT com

On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 12:46:58AM +0000, Evan Foss (evanfoss AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
...

> > Now, this is what we have due to everybody want 'do it my
> > way / in my preferred language', I believe.
> 
> The advantage of such a statement is that any one who responds will
> inevitably risk being the creator of a flamewar by restarting those
> two fights. All they can do is talk in very general terms.

You know how many languages have been mentioned here (lua, awk,
python, ruby, c, ada, java, scheme, etc etc) and I see all the
people who mention their preferred languages say something like "I
would work on the project if (and only if) it is written in my
preferred language". This will repeat all over and for ever. The
rule I use for myself is "if you cannot rewrite it all in your
preferred language, make changes in the language it is written
in". When I worked on our wiki translation, I modified the program
po4a which is used in the Debian project and is written in Python
to make it work with dokuwiki syntax. I don't like dokuwiki but it
is what we have, so see my rule above, I continue to work with
what we have because I cannot (yet ;-)) redo it other way. I see
Roland tries to rewrite anything in Python. While I know he has
made a great work (in various senses), he is too far from what we
already have done in the project in other languages. And I
consider his attitude non-pragmatic (though who knows, probably
his work will start something newer/better), so I won't support
his xorn (sorry, Roland), at least before the point where it would
be comparable with geda-gaf. To make the flame war you've
mentioned more interesting I'll append some coals in replies to
other emails ;-)

> > BTW, I have prototyped some (very) minimal simulation workflow. I
> > did it when I learned nullor. If anybody is interested, I could
> > publish the code.
> 
> How is this different from the makefile driven simulation we already
> have? I mean we already support ng-spice and others.

It can be called using menu shortcuts in gschem.
Probably I have written about it early.

> The ways in which we are lagging are most glaring to new users in pcb
> and in compatibility with other programs. There is one prize left up
> for grabs that will pull a lot of the user base that cares about open
> hardware and wants open software to do it. Compatibility with Eagle
> and KiCad. I know I have pushed for other stuff in the past but I
> think we need compatibility now or we will fall so far off the map no
> one will consider using much less contributing to gEDA or it's forks.

1. The number of shouts on our and Kicad's mailing list not always
reflect the choose of users. There are other estimation methods,
e.g. Debian has a package (I forgot its name) which gathers the
statistic of number of installation of every package, and gEDA is
as popular as Kicad yet, and it depends on you and me to make it
more usable, convenient and popular. We would win if users have
fun doing their job.

2. I know, Erich Heinzle has done a great deal of work to make
conversion utilities for many foreign formats, including Kicad and
Eagle IIRC. We already can use them as is. We also can use them
using the system() function which is present both in C and
Guile. The work is only needed (and appreciated) to make it all
convenient.

3. Look, some projects seem to be dead but people pick them and
they get a new life. One of the examples is Spice which has been
transformed to ngSpice. If you look at the ngspice mailing list,
you would learn that there are a few developers who move the
project forward. The same is with gnucap. I see only Al Davis and
Felix are working hard on it, and attracting other developers
using google summers of code. When I got my current job, there
were four people in our department, then five, now two. We do the
same work, and do it well (otherwise I wouldn't have time to work
on gEDA), and I have the same waiges for it (my day work) and even
less for years. Now I understand that people like sparks
attractive for their eyes, and don't understand that not sparks,
but electrical current does work for them. The same I see in our
project. People like many adds and talks about changing one
variable in a C function, and do not notion some major complex
changes or a design decision which have been done by a developer
and which let you achieve far more complex things.

4. We are under worse circumstances compared with Kicad. They have
the CERN umbrella and donations from users. We could not achieve
neither the former, nor the latter. Having so many rich users who
are bragging of having thousands of dollars for the designs they
have done in gEDA, some of our developers (read, me ;-)) have no
money to buy a second-hand laptop in order to work on the project
when I have a vacation and go to my old parents. I am ashamed for
myself to say this, but this is true.

-- 
  Vladimir

- Raw text -