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Date:	Sun, 28 Feb 2016 13:22:58 -0900
Message-ID:	<CAC4O8c_kg9ort-Pvek8k5Gdh0XRDasic0W7K4YwLD+dxJmg5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject:	Re: [geda-user] pcb import schematic crash, parantheses in netname
From:	"Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
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On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 11:50 AM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
>
> On Feb 28, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 6:11 AM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Feb 28, 2016, at 7:07 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak <kmk AT familieknaak DOT de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Doty wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> as well since it will help gschem stay viable long-term,
>>>>>
>>>>> Gschem has no such problem.
>>>>
>>>> CERN chose kicad rather than gschem for their open hardware
>>>> initiative. Same with a number of high profile open hardware projects.
>>>> See http://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/ for some examples.
>>>
>>> And more people choose Word than LaTeX. That doesn’t mean that LaTeX isn’t a better choice for those of us who use it, or that it should be more like Word (at your suggestion, I tried Lyx. Ugh. Inflexible and difficult. Combines the disadvantages of both approaches).
>>>
>>> Eleven days ago, JAXA launched Hitomi (ASTRO-H) with ASICs designed with geda-gaf and ngspice on board. Quietest CCD measurement chains ever put into space.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please don't delude yourself int the perception everything is working
>>>> alright, when it clearly isn’t.
>>>
>>> Clearly not. But there’s a profound difference between what pcb users want and what geda-gaf provides. Geda-gaf's application space is far broader, but pcb users want something more targeted. Of course, geda-gaf is pretty simple and flexible, and we who script it can aim it at whatever target we wish. But there's a big faction here who don’t want to do that: they conceive of something as hard-wired, complicated, and inflexible as pcb (but perhaps easier to use for *their* application).
>>
>> pcb has an action system.  It has batch mode.  It has a plugin system.  It has
>> a text file format.  It doesn't aspire to be "hard-wired" any more than gschem.
>> A number of people are working on making it more scriptable, not less so.
>
> But it doesn’t have flexible abstractions underneath these things. Pcb simply can’t do anything that fails to conform to a limited set of intentions reflecting use cases. It’s not a “stack of materials” editor: it can only handle a weirdly restricted subset.

If you mean it can only make pcbs you're correct, but since that's all it's
supposed to do that's hardly surprising.  The abstractions it uses are
quite suitable for the purpose.  If it was a "stack of materials" editor
it wouldn't work to make pcbs, since stacking up a bunch of materials won't
result in a pcb.

I think what frustrates me most about your attitude towards pcb is that you're
determined to regard its problems (and I freely admit that there are some)
as fundamental design defects.  You're mostly wrong in this, have no basis
for the claim, and should stop making it.

> Gschem is an unspecialized topology editor built on highly flexible abstractions. Add a suitable symbol library and it can represent the topology of a printed circuit, an ASIC, a Makefile, or plumbing. There are a few blemishes, e.g. slotting, where it hard-wires use cases, pcb-style. Perhaps we can move those to optional scripts in the future.
>
>>> It’s also true that much of geda-gaf’s intelligence is actually in your symbol library, so assembling a good symbol library for a particular purpose is a large part of the challenge. But as you know, this is also fraught with difficulty, because even the pcb application space isn’t a coherent, monolithic thing.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It has been stable and productive for
>>>>> well over a decade.
>>>>
>>>> Just like pcb. Only that in this case it is decades.
>>>
>>> Except that if you watch this list, the most common topic is problems with pcb. A significant subset is problems with pcb that people expect geda-gaf to work
>>
>> That's because what pcb is trying to do is harder.
>
> Is it that the problem is intrinsically harder, or that the approach of implementing a function for every use case ad hoc makes the problem harder?

It's intrinsically harder.  I'm going to assume you accept that.  If you
knew how it worked at all you wouldn't claim that it implements a function
for every use case.  It absolutely does not.  If you actually want an idea
how it works take a look in src/gpcb_menu.res.in, and you'll see that all
the operations defined in the menus are implemented in terms of sequences
of fundamental actions.

>>>> Do you remember the poll I did a while ago? The results were non-
>>>> ambiguous.
>>>
>>> No, they were on a pcb-dominated forum. Not an unbiased sample.
>>
>> The forum in question is also the largest gschem forum
>
> Indeed. That’s a problem. We really need to separate the projects. What’s here of interest to a gschem user who doesn’t use pcb? People like Paul Tan don’t seem to post anymore.

You're changing the subject from the user composition question and relevance
of Kai's poll.  I'll take it you concede the point.

Britton

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