Mail Archives: geda-user/2015/12/31/20:49:07
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On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via
geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 03:04:27PM -0500, Evan Foss (evanfoss AT gmail DOT com)
> [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
> > > You can=E2=80=99t imagine doing this with a specialized tool?
> >
> > The order of events to back notate.
> >
> > 1. PCB exports a netlist (which I will call the backward netlist)
> > 2. diff of forward and backward netlists
> > 3. gnetlist generates a list of changes to connections
> > 4. gschem takes the changes and lets the user implement or disregard
> them.
> >
> > If that seems amilliar it is because this is mostly what Igor2 did.
> > Igor2 had PCB run more of it but still.
> >
> > Why run so much through gnetlist? Because you won't let use endow
> > libgeda with an understanding of netlists and to map the changes back
> > the other way we need that.
>
> I won't comment on this, please see my previous email in the list today.
>
> >
> > >> Right now
> > >> gschem almost has this because there is a highlight functionality th=
at
> > >> lets you select a whole net and unintentionally maps the connections
> > >> in the process.
>
> > > Functionality that gets in the way more often than it helps.
> >
> > You are right but the code is there and it works. (Igor2 proved it)
>
> That's fine. You have all means to commit it to the central repo.
>
> ...
>
> > > Lisp is having a resurgence with Clojure. Scheme isn=E2=80=99t really=
that
> different from other Lisp dialects. We really only use a small subset of =
it.
> >
> > Look at the graphs github generates of language use. I am not
> > suggesting we go with what is most popular but there is something to
> > be said for not using a language that's largest application was in
> > teaching programming.
>
> As you can see, the champion today is JavaScript. Please run:
> guile
> scheme@(guile-user)> ,L ecmascript
> Happy hacking with ECMAScript! To switch back, type `,L scheme'.
>
> Voila! Voila?? Hurray???
>
> BTW, the tenth place is HTML's. If even it is more popular than
> any lisp there, I won't use it to program for geda-gaf. Would you
> do this?
>
> > Trying to save gEDA by tying it to scheme is like trying to save a
> > lifeboat by tying it to the Titanic.
>
> As you probably already saw, gEDA is not tied to scheme. Far
> worse, it's a huge C-Scheme mess nobody wants to clean up to make
> things: simpler, better, and more hackable.
>
> >
> > Scheme is there and I am not advocating it's removal. I am just saying
> > that Vladimir's plan to replace our already existing C with more
> > Scheme is probably not going to help use gain contributors.
>
> I don't want to replace all code. I have no resouces for it
> anyway. I want to clean up code and replace C-Scheme mess where it
> is appropriate with something more hackable and intelligible. I want
>
If you want intelligible, don't use a language nobody knows.
Cleaning up the mess may be good, but you have two strikes against you from
the start: you're *replacing* functional stuff, so your best possible
return is only a fraction of what you might get from doing new work to plug
feature holes, and of course the unknown language issue.
The irony is that if you have enough knowledge of the system to improve it
by rewriting it, you're one of the few with enough knowledge of it to plug
feature holes with confidence that you aren't breaking, reinventing or
otherwise making things worse.
Britton
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Vladimir Zhbanov (<a href=3D"mailto:vz=
hbanov AT gmail DOT com">vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com</a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user@=
delorie.com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>>=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 03=
:04:27PM -0500, Evan Foss (<a href=3D"mailto:evanfoss AT gmail DOT com">evanfoss AT g=
mail.com</a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delor=
ie.com</a>] wrote:<br>
> > You can=E2=80=99t imagine doing this with a specialized tool?<br>
<span class=3D"">><br>
> The order of events to back notate.<br>
><br>
> 1. PCB exports a netlist (which I will call the backward netlist)<br>
> 2. diff of forward and backward netlists<br>
> 3. gnetlist generates a list of changes to connections<br>
> 4. gschem takes the changes and lets the user implement or disregard t=
hem.<br>
><br>
> If that seems amilliar it is because this is mostly what Igor2 did.<br=
>
> Igor2 had PCB run more of it but still.<br>
><br>
</span><span class=3D"">> Why run so much through gnetlist? Because you =
won't let use endow<br>
> libgeda with an understanding of netlists and to map the changes back<=
br>
> the other way we need that.<br>
<br>
</span>I won't comment on this, please see my previous email in the lis=
t today.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
><br>
> >> Right now<br>
> >> gschem almost has this because there is a highlight functiona=
lity that<br>
> >> lets you select a whole net and unintentionally maps the conn=
ections<br>
> >> in the process.<br>
<br>
> > Functionality that gets in the way more often than it helps.<br>
><br>
> You are right but the code is there and it works. (Igor2 proved it)<br=
>
<br>
</span>That's fine. You have all means to commit it to the central repo=
.<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
> > Lisp is having a resurgence with Clojure. Scheme isn=E2=80=99t re=
ally that different from other Lisp dialects. We really only use a small su=
bset of it.<br>
><br>
> Look at the graphs github generates of language use. I am not<br>
> suggesting we go with what is most popular but there is something to<b=
r>
> be said for not using a language that's largest application was in=
<br>
> teaching programming.<br>
<br>
As you can see, the champion today is JavaScript. Please run:<br>
=C2=A0 guile<br>
=C2=A0 scheme@(guile-user)> ,L ecmascript<br>
=C2=A0 Happy hacking with ECMAScript!=C2=A0 To switch back, type `,L scheme=
'.<br>
<br>
Voila! Voila?? Hurray???<br>
<br>
BTW, the tenth place is HTML's. If even it is more popular than<br>
any lisp there, I won't use it to program for geda-gaf. Would you<br>
do this?<br>
<br>
> Trying to save gEDA by tying it to scheme is like trying to save a<br>
> lifeboat by tying it to the Titanic.<br>
<br>
As you probably already saw, gEDA is not tied to scheme. Far<br>
worse, it's a huge C-Scheme mess nobody wants to clean up to make<br>
things: simpler, better, and more hackable.<br>
<br>
><br>
> Scheme is there and I am not advocating it's removal. I am just sa=
ying<br>
> that Vladimir's plan to replace our already existing C with more<b=
r>
> Scheme is probably not going to help use gain contributors.<br>
<br>
I don't want to replace all code. I have no resouces for it<br>
anyway. I want to clean up code and replace C-Scheme mess where it<br>
is appropriate with something more hackable and intelligible. I want<br></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">If you want intelligible, don'=
t use a language nobody knows.</div><div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D=
"">Cleaning up the mess may be good, but you have two strikes against you f=
rom the start: you're *replacing* functional stuff, so your best possib=
le return is only a fraction of what you might get from doing new work to p=
lug feature holes, and of course the unknown language issue.</div><div styl=
e=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">The irony is that if you have enough knowl=
edge of the system to improve it by rewriting it, you're one of the few=
with enough knowledge of it to plug feature holes with confidence that you=
aren't breaking, reinventing or otherwise making things worse.</div><d=
iv style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">Britton</div><div><br></div></div><=
/div></div>
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