Mail Archives: geda-user/2015/12/23/03:18:13
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One further thought.
Although PCB does not support text on footprints easily, I am working on a
port to a centreline defined PCB compatible font of some codepages from the
free CAD appropriate OSIFONT
https://github.com/hikikomori82/osifont
If PCB footprint text becomes simpler, there may be scope to use kicad's
footprint editor in a standalone way for gEDA PCB footprint creation, with
suitable additional (and likely trivial) code to export the created
footprint in gEDA format.
This would save the gEDA project much of the work of creating a stand alone
footprint editor.
I don't know how easy it would be to run their editor standalone, though.
Cheers,
Erich.
On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 6:34 PM, Erich Heinzle <a1039181 AT gmail DOT com> wrote:
> while writing the utilities to port kicad libraries (schematic symbols)
> and modules (footprints) to gEDA's format, the key differences which made
> direct translation difficult were:
>
> gschema:
>
> a different set of pin types:
>
> in Input
> out Output
> io Input/Output
> oc Open collector
> oe Open emitter
> pas Passive
> tp Totem pole
> tri Tristate (high impedance)
> clk Clock pwrPower/Ground
> *Table 1:* pintype valuesfor gschem
>
> vs kicad's:
>
> Input
>
> Usual input pin
>
> Output
>
> Usual output
>
> Bidirectional
>
> Input or Output
>
> Tri-state
>
> Bus input/output
>
> Passive
>
> Usual ends of passive components
>
> Unspecified
>
> Unknown electrical type
>
> Power input
>
> Power input of a component
>
> Power output
>
> Power output like a regulator output
>
> Open collector
>
> Open collector often found in analog comparators
>
> Open emitter
>
> Open collector sometimes found in logic.
>
> Not connected
>
> Must be left open in schematic
>
> obviously, seamless symbol interchange would be facilitated by having
> equivalent categories of pin type.
> gschema supports arbitrarily large numbers of attributes for elements in =
a
> symbol, kicad does not.
> This is not a big deal since the harder work of drawing and pin labelling
> and pin type designation is not duplicated/wasted effort.
>
>
> PCB footprints / kicad modules:
>
> the key differences are:
>
> kicad does not support octagonal pins, PCB does, although it is not
> regularly used.
>
> kicad supports rotation of individual pads to be specified, PCB does not;
> not a show stopper.
> kicad supports trapezoidal pads, PCB does not.
> kicad supports slots in pins, PCB does not.
> kicad supports obround pins, PCB does not - I used a combination of round
> ads and rectangular pads to effect obround pads when converting from kica=
d
> to PCB.
>
> kicad, in theory, supports bezier curves on layouts/footprints, but they
> do not appear to be common. PCB does not support beziers.
>
> kicad allows the definition for a set of drawing elements to be applied t=
o
> multiple layers.
>
> if PCB could have support added for some or all of the kicad elements
> which do not have a direct equivalent, seamless footprint interchange wou=
ld
> be easier. It seems pcb-rnd can already do some oddball pad shapes.
>
>
> I have been looking at kicad schematics, with a view to creating a
> converter. The format is documented at
>
> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Kicad/file_formats#Schematic_Files_Format
>
> the kicad schematic file format is a minor extension of the kicad symbol
> format, and a converter looks fairly tractable.
>
>
> I plan to contribute code to madparts to allow geda PCB footprint export.
> Madparts allows export in eagle, and kicad formats currently, and
> conversion between them, it seems, using a universal internal
> representation of the parts.
>
> I will need to bone up on python.
>
> http://madparts.org/footprint.html
>
>
>
> Based on my fairly detailed perusal of the kicad documentation, these see=
m
> to me to be the most concrete ways in which to facilitate shared effort o=
n
> the symbol and footprint fronts.
>
> Perhaps we could have a git repo that mirrors the kicad symbols and
> footprints exactly, except that they will be in gschem/pcb formats.
>
> I am also hacking away on a gerber to pcb layout converter, and could
> fairly easily add kicad format output as an option.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Erich.
>
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Kai-Martin Knaak <
> knaak AT iqo DOT uni-hannover DOT de> wrote:
>
>> Peter Clifton wrote:
>>
>> > It will come... We have often encountered problems keeping up with
>> > porting to new GUILE versions, and it won't be forever away before
>> > GTK2.0 is less common pre-installed on distros.
>>
>> Quick reminder:
>> My efforts to cross-compile geda for windows still fail because the
>> guile.exe binary just exits. It does so both in wine and in Microsoft
>> windows. And yes, I did try Victors latest version of minipack as well a=
s
>> mxe. So the latest windows version of geda gaf remains to be the last
>> which did not depend on guile 1.8. IIRC, this was in 2010.
>>
>> In addition, with regular linux the gschem-takes-a-nap bug is still
>> lingering in the background. When exposed by the the autonumber hook,
>> guiles garbage collection confiscates 100% of a quad core processor for
>> anything between 5 seconds and three minutes.
>>
>> I sort of gave up on both issues about three months ago. Will gladly che=
ck
>> again if there was a change which might have them fixed.
>>
>>
>> > I think you often confuse my thoughts on better "integration" or
>> > better "interoperability" with producing an all-in-one closed
>> > tool-chain like KiCAD.
>>
>> Is kicad really that all that tightly integrated? I got the impression,
>> just like geda it comes with separate modules for schematic capture and
>> layout. ("eeschema" and "pcbnew"). There is of course a project managing
>> GUI called "kicad". But you can run the components standalone just like
>> you do in geda. And just like in geda you don't have cross selection and
>> bacvk annotation available in this mode.
>>
>> ---<)kaimartin(>---
>> --
>> Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895
>> Universit=C3=A4t Hannover, Inst. f=C3=BCr Quantenoptik fax: +49-511=
-762-2211
>> Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de
>> GPG key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=3DKnaak+kmk&op=3D=
get
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>One further thought.<br><br>=
</div>Although PCB does not support text on footprints easily, I am working=
on a port to a centreline defined PCB compatible font of some codepages fr=
om the free CAD appropriate OSIFONT<br><br><a href=3D"https://github.com/hi=
kikomori82/osifont">https://github.com/hikikomori82/osifont</a><br><br></di=
v>If PCB footprint text becomes simpler, there may be scope to use kicad=
9;s footprint editor in a standalone way for gEDA PCB footprint creation, w=
ith suitable additional (and likely trivial) code to export the created foo=
tprint in gEDA format.<br><br></div>This would save the gEDA project much o=
f the work of creating a stand alone footprint editor.<br><br><br></div>I d=
on't know how easy it would be to run their editor standalone, though.<=
br><br></div>Cheers,<br><br></div>Erich.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 6:34 PM, Erich Hei=
nzle <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:a1039181 AT gmail DOT com" target=3D"=
_blank">a1039181 AT gmail DOT com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>while writing the utilities to port kica=
d libraries (schematic symbols) and modules (footprints) to gEDA's form=
at, the key differences which made direct translation difficult were:<br><b=
r></div>gschema:<br><br></div><div>a different set of pin types:<br><br>in =
Input<br>out Output<br>io Input/Output<br>oc Open collector<br>oe Open emit=
ter<br>pas Passive<br>tp Totem pole<br>tri Tristate (high impedance)<br>clk=
Clock
=09
=09
pwrPower/Ground<br><strong>Table 1:</strong> pintype valuesfor gschem<br>=
<br></div><div>vs kicad's:<br></div><div><p>Input</p>
<p>Usual input pin</p>
<p>Output</p>
<p>Usual output</p>
<p>Bidirectional</p>
<p>Input or Output</p>
<p>Tri-state</p>
<p>Bus input/output</p>
<p>Passive</p>
<p>Usual ends of passive components</p>
<p>Unspecified</p>
<p>Unknown electrical type</p>
<p>Power input</p>
<p>Power input of a component</p>
<p>Power output</p>
<p>Power output like a regulator output</p>
<p>Open collector</p>
<p>Open collector often found in analog comparators</p>
<p>Open emitter</p>
<p>Open collector sometimes found in logic.</p>
<p>Not connected</p>
<p>Must be left open in schematic</p><br></div><div>obviously, seamless sym=
bol interchange would be facilitated by having equivalent categories of pin=
type.<br></div><div>gschema supports arbitrarily large numbers of attribut=
es for elements in a symbol, kicad does not.<br>This is not a big deal sinc=
e the harder work of drawing and pin labelling and pin type designation is =
not duplicated/wasted effort.<br></div><br><br>PCB footprints / kicad modul=
es:<br><div><div><div><br></div><div>the key differences are:<br><br></div>=
<div>kicad does not support octagonal pins, PCB does, although it is not re=
gularly used.<br><br></div><div>kicad supports rotation of individual pads =
to be specified, PCB does not; not a show stopper.<br></div><div>kicad supp=
orts trapezoidal pads, PCB does not.<br></div><div>kicad supports slots in =
pins, PCB does not.<br></div><div>kicad supports obround pins, PCB does not=
- I used a combination of round ads and rectangular pads to effect obround=
pads when converting from kicad to PCB.<br></div><div><br></div><div>kicad=
, in theory, supports bezier curves on layouts/footprints, but they do not =
appear to be common. PCB does not support beziers.<br><br></div><div>kicad =
allows the definition for a set of drawing elements to be applied to multip=
le layers.<br><br></div><div>if PCB could have support added for some or al=
l of the kicad elements which do not have a direct equivalent, seamless foo=
tprint interchange would be easier. It seems pcb-rnd can already do some od=
dball pad shapes.<br><br><br></div><div>I have been looking at kicad schema=
tics, with a view to creating a converter. The format is documented at<br><=
br><a href=3D"https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Kicad/file_formats#Schematic_Fi=
les_Format" target=3D"_blank">https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Kicad/file_form=
ats#Schematic_Files_Format</a><br><br></div><div>the kicad schematic file f=
ormat is a minor extension of the kicad symbol format, and a converter look=
s fairly tractable.<br><br><br></div><div>I plan to contribute code to madp=
arts to allow geda PCB footprint export. Madparts allows export in eagle, a=
nd kicad formats currently, and conversion between them, it seems, using a =
universal internal representation of the parts.<br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>I will need to bone up on python.<br></div><div><br><a href=3D"http://mad=
parts.org/footprint.html" target=3D"_blank">http://madparts.org/footprint.h=
tml</a><br><br><br><br></div><div>Based on my fairly detailed perusal of th=
e kicad documentation, these seem to me to be the most concrete ways in whi=
ch to facilitate shared effort on the symbol and footprint fronts.<br><br><=
/div><div>Perhaps we could have a git repo that mirrors the kicad symbols a=
nd footprints exactly, except that they will be in gschem/pcb formats.<br><=
/div><div><br></div><div>I am also hacking away on a gerber to pcb layout c=
onverter, and could fairly easily add kicad format output as an option.<br>=
<br></div><div>Cheers,<br><br></div><div>Erich.<br></div></div></div></div>=
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Kai-Martin Knaak <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:knaak AT iqo DOT uni-hannover DOT de" target=3D"=
_blank">knaak AT iqo DOT uni-hannover DOT de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><span>Peter Clifton wrote:<br>
<br>
> It will come... We have often encountered problems keeping up with<br>
> porting to new GUILE versions, and it won't be forever away before=
<br>
> GTK2.0 is less common pre-installed on distros.<br>
<br>
</span>Quick reminder:<br>
My efforts to cross-compile geda for windows still fail because the<br>
guile.exe binary just exits. It does so both in wine and in Microsoft<br>
windows. And yes, I did try Victors latest version of minipack as well as<b=
r>
mxe. So the latest windows version of geda gaf remains to be the last<br>
which did not depend on guile 1.8. IIRC, this was in 2010.<br>
<br>
In addition, with regular linux the gschem-takes-a-nap bug is still<br>
lingering in the background. When exposed by the the autonumber hook,<br>
guiles garbage collection confiscates 100% of a quad core processor for<br>
anything between 5 seconds and three minutes.<br>
<br>
I sort of gave up on both issues about three months ago. Will gladly check<=
br>
again if there was a change which might have them fixed.<br>
<span><br>
<br>
> I think you often confuse my thoughts on better "integration"=
; or<br>
> better "interoperability" with producing an all-in-one close=
d<br>
> tool-chain like KiCAD.<br>
<br>
</span>Is kicad really that all that tightly integrated? I got the impressi=
on,<br>
just like geda it comes with separate modules for schematic capture and<br>
layout. ("eeschema" and "pcbnew"). There is of course a=
project managing<br>
GUI called "kicad". But you can run the components standalone jus=
t like<br>
you do in geda. And just like in geda you don't have cross selection an=
d<br>
bacvk annotation available in this mode.<br>
<br>
---<)kaimartin(>---<br>
<span><font color=3D"#888888">--<br>
Kai-Martin Knaak=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 tel: <a href=3D=
"tel:%2B49-511-762-2895" value=3D"+495117622895" target=3D"_blank">+49-511-=
762-2895</a><br>
Universit=C3=A4t Hannover, Inst. f=C3=BCr Quantenoptik=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
fax: <a href=3D"tel:%2B49-511-762-2211" value=3D"+495117622211" target=3D"_=
blank">+49-511-762-2211</a><br>
Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a h=
ref=3D"http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de</a><br>
GPG key:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=
=3DKnaak+kmk&op=3Dget" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://pgp.=
mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=3DKnaak+kmk&op=3Dget</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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