Mail Archives: geda-user/2015/12/21/20:58:50
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The more I work with poorly written standards the more I appreciate JTAG.
The authors of that standard really knew what they were doing. Jtag is not
one standard. There is IEEE 1149.1 that covers the basics and
infrastructure that everyone needs to know. It is concise and compact and
easy to wrap your brain around. Then extra features are added with their
own dot level. I think they are up to dot 7 now. If you don't care about
the higher levels then you never see them in the docs.
They also have Ken Parker. Nobody in industry uses the standard, They all
buy Ken's Boundary Scan Handbook that not only describes the standard but
tells you why it does things that why and how to use it. It is well worth
the price.
The old model of selling access to information does not work in the
Internet age. You give it away for free to get people to use it and then
you make money off helping them.
John Eaton
On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Peter Clifton (
petercjclifton AT googlemail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <
geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
> The data model is freely available in a machine readable language
> (Express). (Express is human readable too, but it only really tells you
> structure / validation rules... You need the standard to understand how to
> apply the structures, and what the fields mean).
>
> Your library may be able to provide access to a copy, depending on its
> subscriptions.
>
> The charge for access is indeed a pain, but it's not huge. Especially when
> compared to the actual monetary value of developer time required to do
> anything with it (even if that developer time is mostly volunteered).
>
> Oh - and access to the standard in no means implies you'll be able to
> extract the information you want from it... When I had my head deep into
> this last, it took months of getting to know how it was structured,
> modelling idioms etc..
>
> To this day, I don't (for example), know how to recreate (from the
> standard) the minimum graph of entity information contained in the StepCODE
> example "minimum AP203 file".. This example is supposed to ONLY contain the
> minimum set of data entities required to create a valid product.
>
> In other words, the standard is like an arcane reference manual... it
> contains very little written with the aim of explaining how to actally USE
> the information model in a non domain expert friendly way.
>
> Peter
> On 21 Dec 2015 23:22, "Nicklas Karlsson (nicklas DOT karlsson17 AT gmail DOT com)
> [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>
>> That's seems like a real problem. Would it be possible to use document
>> for GNU licensed software following this standard?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:03:34 -0800
>> "Ouabache Designworks (z3qmtr45 AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <
>> geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Peter Clifton (
>> > petercjclifton AT googlemail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <
>> > geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > We despirately need interchange and portable data, just as 3D cad
>> needed
>> > > it when the STEP standard was begun. AP210 exists, and is non
>> proprietary.
>> > > Embrace it.
>> > >
>> > > Embrace the concepts and models it uses, even if we still start with
>> our
>> > > own file formats and internal data structures.
>> > >
>> > > Best regards,
>> > >
>> > > Peter Clifton
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > Tried to find a copy and they want $198 for it.
>> >
>> > John Eaton
>>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>The more I work with poorly written standar=
ds the more I appreciate JTAG. The authors of that standard really knew wha=
t they were doing. Jtag is not one standard. There is IEEE 1149.1 that cove=
rs the basics and infrastructure that everyone needs to know. It is concise=
and compact and easy to wrap your brain around. Then extra features are ad=
ded with their own dot level. I think they are up to dot 7 now. If you don&=
#39;t care about the higher levels then you never see them in the docs.<br>=
<br><br></div>They also have Ken Parker. Nobody in industry uses the standa=
rd, They all buy Ken's Boundary Scan Handbook that=C2=A0 not only descr=
ibes the standard but tells you why it does things that why and how to use =
it. It is well worth the price.<br><br><br></div>The old model of selling a=
ccess to information does not work in the Internet age. You give it away fo=
r free to get people to use it and then you make money off helping them.<br=
><br></div>John Eaton<br><br><br><div><div><br><br></div></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at=
4:34 PM, Peter Clifton (<a href=3D"mailto:petercjclifton AT googlemail DOT com">p=
etercjclifton AT googlemail DOT com</a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie.=
com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:ged=
a-user AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>></span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">The data model is f=
reely available in a machine readable language (Express). (Express is human=
readable too, but it only really tells you structure / validation rules...=
You need the standard to understand how to apply the structures, and what =
the fields mean).</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Your library may be able to provide access to a copy, depend=
ing on its subscriptions.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">The charge for access is indeed a pain, but it's not hug=
e. Especially when compared to the actual monetary value of developer time =
required to do anything with it (even if that developer time is mostly volu=
nteered).</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Oh - and access to the standard in no means implies you'=
ll be able to extract the information you want from it... When I had my hea=
d deep into this last, it took months of getting to know how it was structu=
red, modelling idioms etc..</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">To this day, I don't (for example), know how to recreate=
(from the standard) the minimum graph of entity information contained in t=
he StepCODE example "minimum AP203 file".. This example is suppos=
ed to ONLY contain the minimum set of data entities required to create a va=
lid product.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">In other words, the standard is like an arcane reference man=
ual... it contains very little written with the aim of explaining how to ac=
tally USE the information model in a non domain expert friendly way.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Peter<br>
</p><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 21 Dec 2015 23:22, "Nicklas Karlsson (<a=
href=3D"mailto:nicklas DOT karlsson17 AT gmail DOT com" target=3D"_blank">nicklas.kar=
lsson17 AT gmail DOT com</a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=
=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>]" <<a href=3D"mailto:geda-use=
r AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>> wrote:<br ty=
pe=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">That's seems like a r=
eal problem. Would it be possible to use document for GNU licensed software=
following=C2=A0 this standard?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:03:34 -0800<br>
"Ouabache Designworks (<a href=3D"mailto:z3qmtr45 AT gmail DOT com" target=3D=
"_blank">z3qmtr45 AT gmail DOT com</a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT c=
om" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>]" <<a href=3D"mailt=
o:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>> wr=
ote:<br>
<br>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Peter Clifton (<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:petercjclifton AT googlemail DOT com" target=3D"_blank">pet=
ercjclifton AT googlemail DOT com</a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT co=
m" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>] <<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT d=
elorie.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> ><br>
> > We despirately need interchange and portable data, just as 3D cad=
needed<br>
> > it when the STEP standard was begun. AP210 exists, and is non pro=
prietary.<br>
> > Embrace it.<br>
> ><br>
> > Embrace the concepts and models it uses, even if we still start w=
ith our<br>
> > own file formats and internal data structures.<br>
> ><br>
> > Best regards,<br>
> ><br>
> > Peter Clifton<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
><br>
>=C2=A0 Tried to find a copy and they want $198 for it.<br>
><br>
> John Eaton<br>
</blockquote></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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