X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f
X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Subject: Re: [geda-user] Antifork
To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
References: <55D8D8B8 DOT 7050907 AT jump-ing DOT de>
 <20150822230549 DOT 3750 DOT qmail AT stuge DOT se> <55D9A5AE DOT 9090604 AT jump-ing DOT de>
 <C2FC0AF3-DFDB-4799-87F7-039614405DCD AT noqsi DOT com> <55D9BC06 DOT 9060106 AT iae DOT nl>
 <55D9C34A DOT 2090709 AT jump-ing DOT de>
 <C55E2A02-99F7-402C-953F-8E844004D61B AT noqsi DOT com>
 <201508232341 DOT t7NNfl9O012371 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com>
 <CF6D95DF-9FBF-48F6-8E68-458A2BC14CAF AT noqsi DOT com>
 <CAM2RGhS9QqDq2dZLwt7LfUFwQouCaX-SuxEu0U2ofNrxuttmhg AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>
From: "Dan McMahill (dan AT mcmahill DOT net) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
Message-ID: <55DA8231.4010904@mcmahill.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 22:32:17 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/38.2.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAM2RGhS9QqDq2dZLwt7LfUFwQouCaX-SuxEu0U2ofNrxuttmhg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Original-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net;
	s=q20140121; t=1440383545;
	bh=iRd1i585hyFpWnUT2dfzwkjwKkYD/sxMn1MJk80cDAQ=;
	h=Received:Received:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:
	 Content-Type;
	b=Rd4znnOaUxqX/xEu+0PingmMGCWjAUTjOv2w7wg0nmYdlrlV6NyCXcSi2vw9JzQGb
	 loYVSzWKyph/pSgbd4iUozcVk+KAQT3ZrP4KDUXsPy2xieSEUSZHghNYzokDJGmS/T
	 hDT9KeA8TdHEuCh/M8rGGSL4gi1nCBno3O4KcCfU3zFZRDqyhY/kr2oGFvHiM4qM1X
	 vAYDqVMyg1Z5I+KAkiVj+lUllyXtAk25iv9qZ2IdIO797jAEFzSRy6JzEi3rHoiK+P
	 kc4p4yNmuy7l5jYl2OXHhbqz2XmPXKqjhFb7n+pQbxsmbfGJi0IgSnSE//ki2r9CTQ
	 i6Bh/5jqspYiA==
Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com
X-Mailing-List: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com
Precedence: bulk

On 8/23/2015 9:04 PM, Evan Foss (evanfoss AT gmail DOT com) [via 
geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 11:54 PM, John Doty<jpd AT noqsi DOT com>  wrote:
>> >
>> >On Aug 23, 2015, at 7:41 PM, DJ Delorie<dj AT delorie DOT com>  wrote:
>> >
>>> >>
>>>>> >>>>In other words: gschem urgently needs a button "make a PCB from
>>>>> >>>>this" and also a "simulate this" one.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Simulation is as simple as pushing a button? Which simulator? Where
>>>> >>>are models? Which notion of hierarchy are you using? Which
>>>> >>>schematics? How are your stimuli generated? How is output displayed?
>>>> >>>So many options. Putting this into gschem is too complicated. You’d
>>>> >>>need subsystems for script editing and something like make. Except
>>>> >>>that excellent tools for those jobs already exist. A toolkit should
>>>> >>>use them, not reinvent them badly.
>>> >>
>>> >>John, your failing here is that you refuse to consider the option of a
>>> >>toolkit that provides easy-to-use defaults.  You assume a toolkit must
>>> >>always be used the hard way, and must not provide any convenience
>>> >>features.
>> >
>> >“Convenience features” that don’t work make it harder to discover what works. I’ve been struggling with Vivado lately…
> This is something that seems to eat up everyone's time. Fighting with
> John. Look I happen to think that to a point he is correct about how
> the tools  architecture should be shaped. That said yes I wish it was
> a point I did not have to hear about so often. Why must everyone take
> the bate when these comments are made. This thread has real potential
> to but instead here we are again fighting about something that could
> have been ignored until it is mentioned in a meaningful context.
>
>

If anyone wants to try and run with it, I have ideas that I started 
implementing the framework for, on how to get that "make me a pcb" and 
"simulate" button without it being so restrictive as to break the tool 
for others.  The basic idea was make sure that gschem had a well defined 
interface for something like a simulator.  The simulator would provide a 
file that basically says:

- I need a menu with these options
- Here is a set of attributes that the user will need a dialog to 
configure (btw, look at the dialogs in PCB for the export HID's.  Those 
are not hard coded in the GTK or Lesstif HID's but are created on the fly).
- Here is what should be run when the user clicks "simulate" or "send to 
pcb" or whatever.

Couple this with something sort of like emacs major modes.

So the idea is you have a full featured schematic editor with no built 
in details about simulator X, Y, or Z or layout tools A, B, or C but you 
provide an easy for those other tools to interface.  I got as far as 
extending the scheme interface to gschem to support some of the dialogs 
and menu creation stuff you'd need but ran out of time and energy.  As 
far as I know that code still exists in the main repository.

This same suggestion should also exist on the mailing list archives too.

It doesn't force a workflow on anyone but it does provide a path to 
streamlined workflows for those who wish to streamline in a different way.

-Dan