X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Original-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:date:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=6x0bJYtbE5q1xUvFht1QTESOlO8IHd3rsvw00bCVfrY=; b=iQbcW0D+qEeFO68FEBjdkPO8K7vUgicezjxHHG/7/ekDpVs8yXou6AbfddPMyEcf+U 3fliym91tu8l0kJ7uiijP8lNWjWlFJYSl6UbgptGhrnlPu+iLyw3O4F2JecrGTpH4sFv 6S8DNAvhbVn8uRhCDgpU6BWVqpBZ2PkR1aI18ncApoYHw9Yw/pnZrgxHM2Wg6DCIR8kg Az0RwdhkpyAsKf3by4xgMn4APouYylUJxpOVlHEyRRUCccDsiAt80yil5Vk029xc97ED VHiKfKS1gBvJtpDy3SK/KrH9Hjj+Qtj3KGJi9mzdin9m6s8zieCqeCkQE5OrhTz4Rzzj bq+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:date:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to :references:mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=6x0bJYtbE5q1xUvFht1QTESOlO8IHd3rsvw00bCVfrY=; b=sdobrPYjiILSL0+NFPJfltix7AmNjypNiq71Bp4aBfwDTdzp1uaha4nj8p/12TPCr4 IYScrxH3ZaDJKZSRZCqYhTuqDmKWZ8fxfreBLCg4JSa2BUf37CBdAYIOS/bhXEOsdROo GBQ1pWt/gBPI+QfEJpWU3L23rNGI1JL1ds7xp0yQtWn/GezzNX6n5/ejOFbFX1wtp7Qy u8IHHucCsqu86iFEhwx62sVK8oXqISv0acjHHFR5Si6xYfVSysohMff4qM3SXbv37idF xbBc98v4zzJCcPBC0GYHw2Kf9LrRNa0xEPpxsjaaMXbmHTq4EK72G200uCAiKhc538/p RrHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531dIlT2RfAFo2gVu8+eCslQsgLDyrTZ0zj4COgEPt+d+s+e9Eu7 G4p+/HSAxI4pkCvQjOILCp1Wsml2kQ8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwC+VxBLZq5wWeQxyke9AWzIhN29BlWXFrKwOB21mQ/Kmqeh+3SKDx3AYuKs2raeeJLPPpG6w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:20f:: with SMTP id y15mr22693261ljn.37.1625815770649; Fri, 09 Jul 2021 00:29:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" X-Google-Original-From: Vladimir Zhbanov Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 10:29:29 +0300 To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com Subject: Languages, once again (was: Re: [geda-user] Thank you - some requests and an offer) Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com References: <20210707101437 DOT 2c7c63a6 AT queeg> <516720E8-7097-4943-89FB-EB0F53B38AD1 AT noqsi DOT com> <420493B5-5B8C-447C-9D66-5D46AFD963E1 AT noqsi DOT com> <20210708202955 DOT 21956 DOT qmail AT stuge DOT se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20210708202955.21956.qmail@stuge.se> Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com X-Mailing-List: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 08:29:55PM +0000, Peter Stuge (peter AT stuge DOT se) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote: > John Doty wrote: > > Has anybody but you mastered Xorn? > > I believe more people know Python than scheme; there's significantly > more gEDA potential with xorn. > > Python is also far more widespread than Guile. > > I think the most significant argument for Python is that KiCad also > exposes its data model in Python; that's a clear path to more shared > effort and simpler portability/convertability of user data. > > That nearly the whole world is now afraid to use Python2 is, well, > unfortunate, but not an insurmountable problem. > > > > The fact that the original scheme backends were the product of multiple > > authors is telling. > > Are there many enough data points to actually tell anything at all? > > I guess no in gEDA/lepton, for both Python and scheme. I didn't want it, sigh... There are much more people writing in C. Adapting your words, why not C then? (You know, there is at least one outstanding example you can find on the gEDA side: pcb-rnd. They went aside, though.) Why people chose C over Assembler in 1970s, its an enigma... Does the fact that more people know / write in C means we should go this way as well? Nope. The example is geda-gaf itself where lots of code is written in C and not maintained for years since people who wrote it do no longer work on the project. If you like debugging C code, please continue, while normal people will choose a more high level language ;-) Now, about once again against your pose on this list: that Python is better than Guile/Scheme because... Does the fact that many people choose Python nowadays tells me something? Yes. People over 25 [1] knowing a little of C find it much better than Scheme which is Lisp and has another paradigm. And there are other languages getting more popular these days. But here [2] and here [3] you can learn why Scheme/Lisp were always one or more steps ahead ("Blub paradox"). The issue with Lisp/Scheme is that many people who learned C didn't even try to do something in Lisp/Scheme. I know, its hard for some people to change their habits [1], [4]. It was so for me, too, as I started writing in it much over 30. Now, in comparison of Python and Scheme, we have different approaches. There are only one implementation of Python which breaks from version to version but has many useful libraries. In time, like other languages, it incorporates some Lisp paradigms (Did you here about lambda in C++ :-)). It's good. OTOH, Scheme (even not Lisp) has many implementation which cannot even standardize many things among them, which is a deficiency. Guile is a FOSS GPL'd implementation of Scheme, that is why we're adhering to it. And, finally, did you ever hear anything about Guix [5]? Is there something comparable in Python yet? Did you ever hear about Racket or Clojure? Sorry, just could not forbear from commenting this gibberish emerging every now and then on the list :-( [1] http://www.trollope.org/scheme.html [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/diff.html [3] http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html [4] http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html [5] guix.gnu.org -- Vladimir