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Subject: Re: [geda-user] A fileformat library (blind/buried vias)
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From: John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com>
In-Reply-To: <201601062051.u06Kpuht007444@envy.delorie.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 17:13:08 -0500
Message-Id: <655800F6-4575-45EA-8E62-8E37335570B5@noqsi.com>
References: <1512221837 DOT AA25291 AT ivan DOT Harhan DOT ORG> <CAC4O8c980g1gj15=5njstC_BT-WYDgKQx9BRycdFKA8OvgtiOg AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <B54C0E1F-1986-4C79-9F70-7F1919B8B26D AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c9bxJP1eMG4yz3YwKkQJRmsDGmLQ0aMd5pJRyu0WpdCtQ AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <C1CFCCEE-C64A-4E49-AA64-446C061656D6 AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c-zt8B=joDd+ws77D2jt6aZf3MWfR_dAvpzGcNuBrTURQ AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 11 DOT 1601030040320 DOT 2176 AT newt> <D9825C8C-B6FD-4C7F-A8D5-B8AF06253B72 AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c_R5xWLmzj_cz0g0mPWNs6mR4efjXKGBoup8YO6nwnPTA AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <A942261D-7C25-4F2D-9CB1-FFC60FA1C160 AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c8zk8=Py1yX6fVqF+35SYe39Li=y4jZ8bCeZ1Ev8WccAg AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <20160105182120 DOT 3237F809D79B AT turkos DOT aspodata DOT se> <8E0210CD-0694-4717-A7B1-3224E39691DA AT sbcglobal DOT net> <CAC4O8c8CxyULauKj+1RT73qdLDnPa1_TOAXY_pXnJNPtnNJYqQ AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <s6nziwjt23p DOT fsf AT falbala DOT ieap DOT uni-kiel DOT de> <alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 00 DOT 1601061228131 DOT 9035 AT igor2priv> <CAJXU7q-ygqW+Jok60vHC1dre9Q0aF4cUo8_5KXvouTW3L5c57A AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <20160106135339.80f8121dd33!
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I thought we were going to give this up, but you keep coming back.

On Jan 6, 2016, at 3:51 PM, DJ Delorie <dj AT delorie DOT com> wrote:

>=20
>> I'm trying to explain how it appears to me. As far as I'm concerned,
>> these problems result from deep flaws in the technical concept.
>=20
> If you have specific examples and constructive ideas on improving
> them, then say so.  To just say it's a "confusing grab bag of
> features" is not helpful.  That's like me saying "I hate scheme"
> without giving examples that would help you improve the situation.
>=20
> If you can't figure out a way to respectfully and constructively state
> your opinion, we'd rather not hear it at all.
>=20
>>>> For this pcb non-user, one of the biggest sources of confusion
>>>> that drives me away is that pcb does not really have layers at
>>>> its foundation.
>>>=20
>>> Of course it does.  You just don't agree with its implementation.
>>=20
>> Don't you understand that the insulating layers are layers? Where
>> are they in the pcb stackup? How do I pattern them?
>=20
> Don't you understand that PCB isn't a generic CAD program, and that we
> make assumptions to simplify the user's (and our) job?

I do understand. I also understand that building on a regular foundation =
makes the job easier, not harder. If gschem was like pcb, we'd have a =
Sallen-Key filter button for designing Sallen-Key filters. Maybe that =
would make designing Sallen-Key filters a little easier. But what if you =
need an MFB filter instead? Or a bridged-T passive filter (designed one =
of those last month). We=92d need hundreds of special cases to use =
gschem this way for routine things, and that would make it harder to =
use. Complicated interactions between these features would be hard to =
deal with. The non-routine (which I often need) would be impossible. The =
developers would have enormous headaches.

But gschem, because it is designed with minimal prejudice to graphically =
represent networks, has no trouble capturing the topology of a =
Sallen-Key filter. Or a charge-pump based delta-sigma modulator cell for =
an ASIC. Or plumbing and Makefiles.

>  You keep
> saying that it has to be your way, without considering that it doesn't
> *have* to be your way, and we might not *want* it to be your way for a
> reason.
>=20

You=92ve explained this many times. Your =93reasons=94 don=92t make =
sense to me. Your =93simplifications=94 make pcb harder to use by their =
inability to simply deal with simple structure.

> PCB's layer group defines the stackup.  The insulators are between the
> conductors.

And that is why you can=92t make a buried via. Or an island of microwave =
circuitry on teflon. Or a mixed flex/rigid layout. Pcb matches the =
mental model of the stack you wish to have, not the physical object =
you=92re designing. But the physics won=92t adapt to you, you must adapt =
to the physics.

>  That's all we really care about at the moment.  If you
> want more than that, find a different layout package, or buy Autocad.
>=20
> Either way, stop harassing the pcb developers just because we aren't
> doing things your way.
>=20

You can always ignore me if you wish. I ignore lots of advice. Last =
year, there was a guy who worked for one of my customers who drove =
everybody crazy. They=92re glad he quit. He had odd, out of left field =
opinions on everything. But sometimes he was right, and the system we =
worked on is better for his input. I miss him. If you want good advice, =
you have to be willing to listen. Then you sift.

John Doty              Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
jpd AT noqsi DOT com



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