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	<YOf62YVLNddlPKR7 AT lepton> <20210712180102 DOT 5944 DOT qmail AT stuge DOT se>
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From:	"Evan Foss (evanfoss AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
Date:	Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:44:35 -0500
Message-ID:	<CAM2RGhSPHcRRGuAHEaaD1o325e65W9NDBBJ6TLqBJo6zmw5-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject:	Re: Languages, once again (was: Re: [geda-user] Thank you - some
	requests and an offer)
To:	gEDA users mailing list <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
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Reply-To:	geda-user AT delorie DOT com

Really guys. We all went our separate forks to avoid this sort of thing.

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 1:11 PM Peter Stuge (peter AT stuge DOT se) [via
geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>
> Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
> > There are much more people writing in C.
>
> If I understand you correctly then I disagree; I believe Python to be
> more widespread than C. (Qualification: Acceptable Python programmers
> vs. acceptable C programmers.)
>
>
> > If you like debugging C code, please continue
>
> I enjoy reading, writing, running and debugging good C code.
>
> But I was comparing Python and Scheme, since they are the respective
> languages in geda-gaf and lepton. Bringing up something else can be
> called whataboutism and derails the discussion, let's stay on topic.
>
> My main arguments for Python seem to hold; it's more widespread
> and offers language compatibility with KiCad data.
>
>
> > you can learn why Scheme/Lisp were always one or more steps ahead
> > ("Blub paradox").
>
> I too enjoy reading Paul Graham. :)
>
> To be clear: I never claimed that the Python language is absolutely
> better than Scheme/Lisp. I find such claims (without consideration
> for context) pointless.
>
>
> > Now, in comparison of Python and Scheme, we have different approaches.
>
> Yes! Scheme is surely an interesting language. And just like Guile has
> issues, so does CPython. But I'd argue less so.
>
>
> > There are only one implementation of Python which breaks from version
> > to version but has many useful libraries.
>
> My impression is that Python rarely breaks? It's clearly a problem
> for geda-gaf that Python 2 is dropped by distributions, but there are
> solutions to that and I believe that it will be a long time until
> Python 3 breaks in a similar way - no?
>
>
> > And, finally, did you ever hear anything about Guix [5]?  Is there
> > something comparable in Python yet?
>
> I've heard about Guix. In general I think we need fewer package managers,
> not more and in particular I disagree very strongly with the current practice
> for every single language to invent its own package manager, if you suggest
> that Python should have more package managers.
>
> The transactional nature of Guix is nice! It reminds me of NixOS.
>
> If your argument is that Guix uses Guile then I find that a bit weak
> because Guix isn't really a high-profile project. Also, both are GNU
> projects, meaning that potential for group think is high - something
> IMO both geda-gaf and lepton should try to avoid rather than lean into.
>
>
> > Did you ever hear about Racket or Clojure?
>
> I looked at Racket some time ago and wasn't excited. :\
>
> Clojure is popular, that's true!
>
> Would you consider typical Racket/Clojure projects comparable to the
> Scheme parts of lepton? I don't know - this is an honest question.
>
>
> John Doty wrote:
> > > On Jul 8, 2021, at 4:29 PM, Peter Stuge (peter AT stuge DOT se) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
> > >
> > > John Doty wrote:
> > >> Has anybody but you mastered Xorn?
> > >
> > > I believe more people know Python than scheme; there's significantly
> > > more gEDA potential with xorn.
> >
> > Have *you* mastered Xorn?
>
> Fair! No - but I haven't tried. I am however confident that I will be
> able to do so quicker than mastering lepton if and when I need to.
>
>
> > Personally, I’m reasonably familiar with Python, but I found Xorn
> > impenetrable.  That’s why I now use Lepton.
>
> Also fair.
>
> If I've understood correctly then xorn exposes a gEDA data model
> superset as required to cover everything that geda-gaf does and did;
> ie. more internals than before, to be able to present a complete and
> coherent model.
>
> If xorn only provides access to internal details never previously
> exposed then that could well explain the hurdle.
>
>
> > Roland is impressively productive with Xorn, but I can’t figure out
> > how to do my custom stuff with it.
>
> This seems to be either a documentation/examples problem or lack of a
> higher-level API on top of the low-level one.
>
>
> > > I think the most significant argument for Python is that KiCad also
> > > exposes its data model in Python; that's a clear path to more shared
> > > effort and simpler portability/convertability of user data.
> >
> > That’s your theory. "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In
> > practice, they are different.”
>
> In practice, handling two different data models in one program using
> one language is easier than doing so across two different programs using
> two different languages.
>
> Conversion is the simple use case. Thanks to xorn I can see a python
> program that merges sheets or partial circuits from both geda-gaf and
> KiCad into a single new schematic while allowing two teams to continue
> working in their respective tool. I find that a supremely compelling
> use case for data usability, which is what determines (or will) the
> future of all our tools.
>
>
> > >> The fact that the original scheme backends were the product of multiple
> > >> authors is telling.
> > >
> > > Are there many enough data points to actually tell anything at all?
> >
> > I count 11 authors explicitly credited in the Lepton netlist back ends.
> > I know I’d find several more if I plowed through the ChangeLog. That’s
> > a fair number of data points.
> >
> > > I guess no in gEDA/lepton, for both Python and scheme.
>
> I don't find 11 so many, and time distribution probably matters too;
> xorn is pretty young in geda-gaf.
>
>
> //Peter



-- 
https://github.com/evanfoss

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