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	Fri, 09 Jul 2021 00:29:30 -0700 (PDT)
From:	"Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
X-Google-Original-From:	Vladimir Zhbanov <vzh AT lepton>
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 2021 10:29:29 +0300
To:	geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Subject:	Languages, once again (was: Re: [geda-user] Thank you - some
	requests and an offer)
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On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 08:29:55PM +0000, Peter Stuge (peter AT stuge DOT se) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
> John Doty wrote:
> > Has anybody but you mastered Xorn?
> 
> I believe more people know Python than scheme; there's significantly
> more gEDA potential with xorn.
> 
> Python is also far more widespread than Guile.
> 
> I think the most significant argument for Python is that KiCad also
> exposes its data model in Python; that's a clear path to more shared
> effort and simpler portability/convertability of user data.
> 
> That nearly the whole world is now afraid to use Python2 is, well,
> unfortunate, but not an insurmountable problem.
> 
> 
> > The fact that the original scheme backends were the product of multiple
> > authors is telling.
> 
> Are there many enough data points to actually tell anything at all?
> 
> I guess no in gEDA/lepton, for both Python and scheme.

I didn't want it, sigh...

There are much more people writing in C.  Adapting your words, why
not C then?  (You know, there is at least one outstanding example
you can find on the gEDA side: pcb-rnd.  They went aside, though.)
Why people chose C over Assembler in 1970s, its an enigma...

Does the fact that more people know / write in C means we should
go this way as well?  Nope.  The example is geda-gaf itself where
lots of code is written in C and not maintained for years since
people who wrote it do no longer work on the project.  If you like
debugging C code, please continue, while normal people will choose
a more high level language ;-)

Now, about once again against your pose on this list: that Python
is better than Guile/Scheme because...

Does the fact that many people choose Python nowadays tells me
something?  Yes.  People over 25 [1] knowing a little of C find it
much better than Scheme which is Lisp and has another paradigm.
And there are other languages getting more popular these days.
But here [2] and here [3] you can learn why Scheme/Lisp were
always one or more steps ahead ("Blub paradox").  The issue with
Lisp/Scheme is that many people who learned C didn't even try to
do something in Lisp/Scheme.  I know, its hard for some people to
change their habits [1], [4].  It was so for me, too, as I started
writing in it much over 30.

Now, in comparison of Python and Scheme, we have different
approaches.  There are only one implementation of Python which
breaks from version to version but has many useful libraries.  In
time, like other languages, it incorporates some Lisp paradigms
(Did you here about lambda in C++ :-)).  It's good.  OTOH, Scheme
(even not Lisp) has many implementation which cannot even
standardize many things among them, which is a deficiency.

Guile is a FOSS GPL'd implementation of Scheme, that is why we're
adhering to it.

And, finally, did you ever hear anything about Guix [5]?  Is there
something comparable in Python yet?

Did you ever hear about Racket or Clojure?

Sorry, just could not forbear from commenting this gibberish
emerging every now and then on the list :-(

[1] http://www.trollope.org/scheme.html
[2] http://www.paulgraham.com/diff.html
[3] http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html
[4] http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
[5] guix.gnu.org

-- 
  Vladimir

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