X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Original-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=okCvNhh5zIi5O/t+EiwxamI8XfcHULIVZ93AgcXljs4=; b=Ha+1pJDQN6TZCMTZsOAZglkeivJHg7y8XzHJ3RYb0Y3sL1kLSgc6n4om3bhFHgm9fX H+KA8XPVrP9O1EpGvHJ3GwEjev/ONcnITxGtagdSTfWWigNP2Ba90tTOWgUJg+vLy7Tq pcOvIRs7pyoUTFttaOgw0LengfnxyQGEuYLvJdAJNLYGZEHGOrwuWvJDzw3W3cLc6lO+ 5PgwtXztBEIDicO8UpIsKZCPVVi8+EH+pR/QBgGu/bflSmmKDjeQKYwQQWnUo9rdKzHB xbw1FBV6CEIKUcDOcZ8PX0cxqSMYYitBnqsp8b1p7dKIcQsMz7dv7PXjOgBsDttM+dlt gZ1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=okCvNhh5zIi5O/t+EiwxamI8XfcHULIVZ93AgcXljs4=; b=akCI4ASVVIpLnduJ3mlZhYCRa9DeBAQqsC3qFo3UcOffgSn8vXDxFHbVK+OkwW1MHB mYwNIzA+mxnwvdEd/1OYfxvOWFlbJSdJgwhQZ2zqlUEXjj8OGzjukUOZHcv2ZWTtjLkN 2mpYQ9QYa6aeH6BWYDKnGBZuHFdaq7cPSly69MUt4lmEpu+9trQqQ4NFt2X/ZJLOoJpT +ZpdtUJPujJv3rnqiYbLiTiB/c2kH9vLXefjwqU2FLfVXEvgnYxt1xE52trG8TyP+tHT JZdBORDhyXmRyAvQGz89q4uDt/7bUgJHY+BKQssYkHczMuX22j6RaToHqHIF35XOMeGF rsrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKpg9bhTKY4T9b0tagIMiiSX3TgI1oArY2aMn8KvbzHJM/SZNGaZdFKvQ7O6W+QdBLTE/+92EQBsqE0Sg== X-Received: by 10.46.32.203 with SMTP id g72mr438214lji.30.1468781750607; Sun, 17 Jul 2016 11:55:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: From: "Evan Foss (evanfoss AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 18:55:49 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [geda-user] [pcb-rnd] code & test sprint - the future of pcb-rnd (cschem) To: gEDA users mailing list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com X-Mailing-List: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com Precedence: bulk On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 3:05 AM, wrote: > > > On Sat, 16 Jul 2016, Roland Lutz wrote: > >> On Sat, 16 Jul 2016, gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu wrote: >>> >>> [Pcb-rnd is] close to being "finished". Which means I should probably >>> stop investing as much time in it as I did in the past months and move my >>> focus on something that is more broken (gschem). >> >> >>> cschem (a replacement for gschem and gnetlist - I'd say contribution is >>> welcome right from the design phase, but I know how it works). >> >> >> Since I'm up to my guts in libgeda right now, I'm very interested in your >> thoughts. What are the problems you see with gschem? How do you intend to >> solve these problems? > > > High level: > > There are some design decisions which are unusual but great. I want to keep > them. They are the reason I am still using geda and gschem despite of all > the below. > > There are other design decisions from early on which I think didn't work out > well or are just plain wrong. There are social/political reasons that makes > it totally impossible to even discuss these constructively, so we are unable > to change them or at least provide alternatives for them within the existing > frame. Geda has locked itslef in, and I believe this determines its (sad) > future. Indeed. > The loud minority of the community and the very few active developers are > not going in a direction that'd solve any of these problems, thus there's no > chance the project can change direction. (No offense ment, I totally see > those guys believe that direction is the right direction the same way I > believe mine is the right one -> this why we need two separate projects.) > > Low level: > > Finally, the code itelf, which is tightly coupled with guile and gtk. When I > wrote the back annotation patch about a year ago I figured I didn't like > most of the code for various reasons. No offense meant, so I rather omit > technical details. Unlike with pcb, I don't see it is worth forking it, it's > cheaper to just rewrite it the way I think is proper, YMMV. (I won't name > any specific issue, because it's really like everywhere I touched the code > there were more issues than solutions; all in the design, in the API and in > the actual implemenetation.) > > Finally, how to solve them, my plans (public since 1st january): > > http://repo.hu/projects/pcb-rnd/devlog/20160101_cschem.html > > (FAQ: Nope, I can't use libgeda or any part of it, and no, I won't be > API-compatible with libgeda. Cschem and the netlister will be able to load > and save geda formats for compatibility, but the native format will be > different, more human-readable, not less script-readable. There won't be > more integration with pcb-rnd or anything else, but there will absolutely be > more cooperation among the tools, options beyond "just generate a diff to > pcb/sim/build netlists and apply the changes by hand".) I was initially hoping libgeda would be reusable but the more I look at it the more unusable it feels. Linking against it means linking against it's dependencies. > I do not want to discuss technical details of the plan now, because a > mailing list thread won't ever yield any useful result but waste everyone's > time. If there are a few users who are willing to help implementing and > testing the design (ideas, no code) on hypotetical test cases, I am more > than happy to channel their efforts in. As I don't use hierarchical netlists > and I have only two or three workflows, such contribution would help keeping > the new design 100% generic. But the design process can only happen in a > coordinated way, using svn to work out ideas and examples. (I have no high > hopes on this, tho, poeple tend to stick to gschem the are used to, so I > expect 0 contributors.) Ah well... > Regards, > > Igor2 Evan -- Home http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ Work http://forge.abcd.harvard.edu/gf/project/epl_engineering/wiki/ -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v2 mQENBFYy4RYBCAC183JomLtbdAlcKiaPDoVHq52LDmVmH75aiEc69m7YxDt54/ai VtYCAobbGVIyn3Hlz3uhF6LnPl/6Lm1VdnCfpwu3KQhCO6ds10ow2C30X4ohCqOd hCVg5C+ILmQkEffFrFODy3ji+PYTF4pADvHCWsTMv0hf0llwFOJsBCK6cl02IffE JPqy4PjM1nZ9HpzT84JBaG/4OGvTZ8SQ2yFUl265jagvygPTf88H1xpZHH1r8dB1 stjUHLmPH8AOyDgKxFchgGeDc3p/vJtgDDIXAFfDXG0NSRovLmtaQdGxe47Zf/go bXiEM7YL2WqQe5zfEA919JxkEwlDKYniOSVzABEBAAG0N0V2YW4gRm9zcyAoVGhp cyBpcyBteSBwdWJsaWMga2V5LikgPGV2YW5mb3NzQGdtYWlsLmNvbT6JATkEEwEC ACMFAlYy4RYCGwMHCwkIBwMCAQYVCAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRCIpQTcE8nN bbBaCACAm8pU5lG1ev2Fsw68Axtcl57SJrYieqX96c3YuYH9JpqMqJRnd9nDKw9X tQuvuH7tUk0VbOaDqReOYJVI/4c5wb9AaOFp6K2DUcupq6XhgXpvz3HzoPwjAdIj XuQzdRUx5+innTJrSkGuBYW/CZ2zqEx4xfLlq4rO0hoTUMR8QVp2cCrkw6BT0m86 APIw/ZnjoxM8IEzr7MxfRIg3qpzrZk28rmhx+k78Jyk61UhwcCPGIm/pjUopTwYJ 3YBdRB2cYD2aN7A1JVf5cRmSQYooHBGpH0kYvomGk97PKqypVuJ7OpG9xM58wUcC qUVt9hKlePLzP8csYjt8onqI7qIIuQENBFYy4RYBCADlH8spG3WkCx62vB5mr5Z0 SCDd/RcyA4A5y5EOj5KurQkrSWpgi9Ho1yKruMJ6blQR2qkc66KqH9pnXDm/ZI1M K/wdW3ngETxBmXoozzFMT89aEWIVR5/PFodWK1elekE9iJxACuR98Zg2QttTD3x8 A9w8VEyMLOXcDTrPFpHegMKswFBg5iuMulAdXAoGejWTI3n+qKFpabHm2Lfs6wjk 5rjucpTdeFK6UeWF1xAvNxXibuu5BlGwv53930qIXRwO/Gn2Rh5DXWxKU2fEIme/ xgQQmIsDeUoWbfybdjw/x7Q0LW4mINiLDQcGHHRQKFIxbAJCT3USPLGh5xwE9/Er ABEBAAGJAR8EGAECAAkFAlYy4RYCGwwACgkQiKUE3BPJzW0uYAf9Hf30n8tM3mR2 Zo6ESE0ivgdgjaJtAWrBUx7JzAzPjBnBOlNnu5Y9lVEqetvUPH6e3PvaHYUuaUU8 0HwxuKBW9nUprgV6uIu1DZmlcp+SxpbuCy7RDpNocRLNWWFMaYYzznmTgfnTgD4D gCq8Mf1mcfrluTkOAo+QNqbMfl1GISClopRqxVuAo59ewgMnFujwgd8w12BwWl24 CzqOs5HqcUslePj+LzcjSNgVCklYwKl+0dsb/fctMOCtHodwqm2CBJ+zydvNmYkD fxda/J91Z1xrah5ec++FL0L4vs+jCiIWJeupJFKlr1hCMZiiGH7W554loK5l4jv3 EY347EidAw== =Ta4p -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----