X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f
X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Message-ID: <1444168358.1949.104.camel@ssalewski.de>
Subject: Re: [geda-user] GTK3, Glade interface designer
From: Stefan Salewski <mail AT ssalewski DOT de>
To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 23:52:38 +0200
In-Reply-To: <20151006200528.GA15793@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20151003210701 DOT de392b925f54dadb0a5fedd8 AT gmail DOT com>
	 <1443903758 DOT 1873 DOT 13 DOT camel AT ssalewski DOT de> <56104A0A DOT 9020507 AT xs4all DOT nl>
	 <1443909591 DOT 1873 DOT 18 DOT camel AT ssalewski DOT de>
	 <20151003222248 DOT GB4287 AT localhost DOT localdomain>
	 <1443913252 DOT 1873 DOT 33 DOT camel AT ssalewski DOT de>
	 <20151006200528 DOT GA15793 AT localhost DOT localdomain>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Mailer: Evolution 3.16.5 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com
X-Mailing-List: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com
Precedence: bulk

On Tue, 2015-10-06 at 23:05 +0300, Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com)
[via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 04, 2015 at 01:00:52AM +0200, Stefan Salewski wrote:
> > On Sun, 2015-10-04 at 01:22 +0300, Vladimir Zhbanov
> > (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
> > > And that's the "success story" of our community.
> > > Every smart enough hacker tries to rewrite everything in his
> > > favourite
> > > language.
> > 
> > Hmm...
> > 
> > I do not see much beside plain C and Scheme.
> Even the main geda-gaf repository has programs/utilities in C, Scheme,
> sh, Perl, Python.
> > 
> > OK, gnucap is C++. And there was xgsch2pcb in Python. Maybe the toy
> > projects pschem and wardana, but I think the authors have spent only
> > a
> > few hours on that.
> > 
> > The "success story" of gEDA/gaf is more that some people like the
> > old,
> > ugly and sometimes cumbersome tools and want to avoid all changes.
> Could you name any of those bad/evil guys? Let's kill them with fire
> :)
> Or could you propose instead some modern, beautiful (or at least not
> so
> ugly) and absolutely not cumbersome tools lying anywhere around to
> replace ours? ;)

I think that usability of gschem is really hard up to version 1.92. It
is not such a big problem when we used it daily, as I did 7 years ago
for a short period. But when you use it from time to time is is
difficult. The very large menu, the multi keystrokes (I can only
remember v-e for view-extend and e-r for edit rotate). No in place text
editing. I really prefer multiple windows, with one area where all
object properties can be modified fast. Scrolling and zooming works
strange. Setting the origin of text is very ugly. Some people have
mentioned that, but there was at least one who said is is good enough as
it is. Of course some stuff works really well in gschem, and some has
improved with 1.9.2. For example moving elements without need of
selecting them prior. And some property editing windows are non modal
now, that is fine. Ugly for example is, that menu still offers actions
which are not available in current state.

I try to improve that usability in my Peted, many works already fine.
Moving pieces, rotating, grid select, inplace text editing with pango
attributes, nice bezier editor, zooming, selecting. And it looks nice.
But of course much is unfinished, editing is only supported for some
elements, printing and PDF saving is not supported. Slots does not work.
And it is a bit slow due to Ruby. I guess it is still about 300 hours of
work to fix that. But then still picture and busses support and undo is
missing.

> 
> > 
> > The other "success story" is, that for a long period no one was
> > willing
> > to do something at all. Long time Peter C was the only active coder.
> > And although he was really smart, using C and avoiding visible
> > changes
> > made it really hart for him. For example, he has worked long on the
> > cairo drawing for gschem.
> Mostly agreed.
> 
> > 
> > And of course there is scheme, GTK and limited Windows support.
> I don't understand, sorry. Is there any 'unlimited' Windows support?
> Or do you mean just Windows installer for geda-gaf?
> 
As I understood there was no real support for Windows OS for gEDA 1.8.x?