X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f
X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
X-Original-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :content-type;
        bh=h6AVa76Ilsf1hVXwx+QxVSmheaVgcWKWFfBmOofqjd8=;
        b=xFiwpCmQ4SHDN7/YcubrLGXxErq/tfgkhPIPjDTJKf2XR8WDc6lmlMoTLQEKbAHiEd
         gxxqi51X4gsBh+FQFrdjS0rocUefL6KRWI7HQNYG6k0fcuMQ5iABJvRivAV2TNx+8i+2
         iMfIkmdoipR+NubUuihUdo9o6LJIzLljMjf4roWfWmuR9c0eW1qjwH/I+466nKF0p5Hg
         ILlKFwSBAUL6Qz+TO243UathLMo0iYZlhVXNrW6p7xaCqrUyN7W6lJskIkBbrejD4t81
         Udi8WUMTVulHnBNjBy0orUDT6FsIi7UL9kelse4n71veQ2gehys2DBYXYUSeLsv8Bmx1
         xKiQ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.180.85.164 with SMTP id i4mr12721657wiz.54.1442531100181;
 Thu, 17 Sep 2015 16:05:00 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <201509172228.t8HMSKSj032271@envy.delorie.com>
References: <201509172026 DOT t8HKQYlQ027664 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com>
	<0C857B2E-AE1C-4C26-B03F-1C3C238A4E32 AT noqsi DOT com>
	<201509172228 DOT t8HMSKSj032271 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 15:05:00 -0800
Message-ID: <CAC4O8c8OCLGxnBNu5F15Gg5cvd-Zy_QVQpDo5FqdAC5ZP-KLyw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [geda-user] Please don't cross-post
From: "Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0445182fcdc968051ff971ba
Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com
X-Mailing-List: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com
Precedence: bulk

--f46d0445182fcdc968051ff971ba
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 2:28 PM, DJ Delorie <dj AT delorie DOT com> wrote:

>
> > The other side of this problem is that we don't have a sharp
> > distinction between developers and users.
>
> I generally don't use the developers list at all, unless I'm talking
> about the git server config, maintenance, or other things that are of
> limited purpose outside of "people with git commit privs".  That's a
> pretty sharp distinction to me, but I don't think that's the problem
> you refer to.  I think we don't have a sharp distinction between using
> and developing.
>
> We've tried having development talk separate, but some users felt they
> weren't "being heard" and migrated there too, taking their user
> problems with them.  So now it's all in one place and some users
> complain anyway.  It seems that this group is just not diciplined
> enough to keep development talk and usage talk separate, without
> everyone's egos getting bruised.
>
> We can't win, and I'm not going to try.  geda-developers is for people
> who have git commit privs, for when we need to email everyone who has
> git commit privs.  geda-help is for people who want help using geda.
> Everything else goes on geda-user.
>

If dev didin't exist, then on the rare occasions when for some legit reason
you need to address the people with commit privs, you can write HEY PEOPLE
WITH GEDA GIT COMMIT PRIVS READ THIS in the subject.  Then people wouldn't
have to be suspicious about what gate-keeping might be going on on dev.
Their suspicion arises from the fact that the list is otherwise almost
pointless.  Lets face it, dev lists exist so the devs of really popular
projects can more easily filter user noise.  gEDA can't afford to do that
anyway.

The concerns of junior devs about whether their work is going in or not are
legitimate.  Via gatekeeping, revert, whatever the mechanism sometimes code
gets written and not ultimately included and this somewhat sucks for the
people who write it.  Projects have some interest in getting prospective
code that they might or might not include, which produces a slight conflict
of interest with contributors.  Apparently gEDA has a history of problems
in this area, so it would be particularly worthwhile to conduct the whole
affair in public, even if that means painful discussions.

--f46d0445182fcdc968051ff971ba
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 2:28 PM, DJ Delorie <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:dj AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">dj AT delorie DOT com</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><br>
&gt; The other side of this problem is that we don&#39;t have a sharp<br>
&gt; distinction between developers and users.<br>
<br>
</span>I generally don&#39;t use the developers list at all, unless I&#39;m=
 talking<br>
about the git server config, maintenance, or other things that are of<br>
limited purpose outside of &quot;people with git commit privs&quot;.=C2=A0 =
That&#39;s a<br>
pretty sharp distinction to me, but I don&#39;t think that&#39;s the proble=
m<br>
you refer to.=C2=A0 I think we don&#39;t have a sharp distinction between u=
sing<br>
and developing.<br>
<br>
We&#39;ve tried having development talk separate, but some users felt they<=
br>
weren&#39;t &quot;being heard&quot; and migrated there too, taking their us=
er<br>
problems with them.=C2=A0 So now it&#39;s all in one place and some users<b=
r>
complain anyway.=C2=A0 It seems that this group is just not diciplined<br>
enough to keep development talk and usage talk separate, without<br>
everyone&#39;s egos getting bruised.<br>
<br>
We can&#39;t win, and I&#39;m not going to try.=C2=A0 geda-developers is fo=
r people<br>
who have git commit privs, for when we need to email everyone who has<br>
git commit privs.=C2=A0 geda-help is for people who want help using geda.<b=
r>
Everything else goes on geda-user.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div styl=
e=3D"">If dev didin&#39;t exist, then on the rare occasions when for some l=
egit reason you need to address the people with commit privs, you can write=
 HEY PEOPLE WITH GEDA GIT COMMIT PRIVS READ THIS in the subject.=C2=A0 Then=
 people wouldn&#39;t have to be suspicious about what gate-keeping might be=
 going on on dev.=C2=A0 Their suspicion arises from the fact that the list =
is otherwise almost pointless.=C2=A0 Lets face it, dev lists exist so the d=
evs of really popular projects can more easily filter user noise. =C2=A0gED=
A can&#39;t afford to do that anyway.</div></div><br></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra" style=3D"">The concerns of junior devs about whether their work =
is going in or not are legitimate.=C2=A0 Via gatekeeping, revert, whatever =
the mechanism sometimes code gets written and not ultimately included and t=
his somewhat sucks for the people who write it.=C2=A0 Projects have some in=
terest in getting prospective code that they might or might not include, wh=
ich produces a slight conflict of interest with contributors.=C2=A0 Apparen=
tly gEDA has a history of problems in this area, so it would be particularl=
y worthwhile to conduct the whole affair in public, even if that means pain=
ful discussions.</div></div>

--f46d0445182fcdc968051ff971ba--