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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 11:17:42 -0800
Message-ID: <CAC4O8c8Q_MSCg6af5Ro13KefdTkMFeEWXyQLrMWZsTw+yJLA6g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [geda-user] The state of gEDA/gaf (Was gEDA/PCBs diversity, Was:
 Pin hole size)
From: Britton Kerin <britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com>
To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
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On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 3:53 AM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
>
> On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:13 AM, Bert Timmerman wrote:
>
>> You hit this nail spot on the head: it's all about momentum and how the software is perceived at first glance ... "you never get a second chance for a first impression".
>>
>> Fritzing does that with integration of a schematic capture + breadboard + PCB layout UI,
>>
>> KiCad does that with integration of schematic capture + PCB layout + 3D views and models,
>>
>> Eagle does integration of schematic capture and PCB layout UI,
>>
>> gEDA-tools do that with ... letting the user find his way in a maze of dispersed tools.
>
> gEDA enables the skilled user to do things far beyond the capabilities of the tools you mention. Symbolic circuit analysis, (with the help of Mathematica), VLSI design (with the help of other tools), or feed ~20 different PCB layout programs. Instead of wasting time with GUI, the gEDA user can automate document and data product generation by employing other tools like make and LaTeX.

John, I like gEDA for the same reasons as you, but everyone else is still
right.  It will die if the new user experience doesn't get better.

>> And a for user convienence www.symbols.org, only usable by fighting and conquering CVS (the SCM tool you will learn to hate).
>
> It's browsable by web, so consumers don't need CVS. And CVS isn't that hard.

cvs is a pain in the ass that no one wants to invest in learning anymore (I'm
delighted to have forgotten it) and this is a major barrier to contributions
to geda-symbols.  And geda-symbols is not complete enough as it stands to
be very useful (see http://www.gedasymbols.org/footprints/newlib.cgi?headers
for example).

>> So the gEDA-tools need to look "sexy" and needs more "eye-candy" to get this "sexy" tool-set to flirt with new (candidate) users.
>
> Nah, let 'em come when they figure out that the other tools can't get the job done. Then they'll actually appreciate gEDA.

The other tools will be able to soon enough.

>> 0.
>> Get the GUIs consistent with each other.
>>
>> 1.
>> Pull in xgsch2pcb as a first point of entry, squash any bugs left and implement outstanding feature request.
>> First step into integration, still keeping a use case for every single tool ;-)
>
> Shudder. If gEDA was focused on serving pcb, I wouldn't be here. What's the point of that? The tools above are likely to remain superior to the gEDA->pcb flow. gEDA's strength is all the *other* stuff it can do. Please do not let the weaknesses of pcb be the driving motivation for changes to the gEDA toolkit.

Its what probably 90+% of users use.  So if it loses bad enough and they go
away (or aren't replaced with new users) the software dies.

>> Start up/migrate www.gedasymbols.org to git and get "social integration" (like in Github) on those symbols, footprints, gnucap models, scripts and other related stuff
>> Give users a chance to improve on other users stuff with "pull requests" and "issues".
>> Give new users a chance to start with a fork of known good stuff that really works.
>> Maybe even move over to Github with the gedasymbols.org repo and let this organization handle the maintenance load.
>
> Git's a massive kit of power tools. I'm puzzled that you think that those users who reject the toolkit approach for EDA will be able to embrace Git.

I agree with you here.  It would be some decent way for people to share symbols
via the web or something.  Also it would be nice if gEDA traditional fear
of heavy (symbol+footprint) symbols would go away.  With a sparse library of
symbols the major value of the library will be as a set of prototype objects
for people to tweak, and having to merge the symbol and footprint halves is
IMO one of the things that makes gEDA so daunting for new users.

Britton