Message-Id: <2.2.32.19961202083851.006dd78c@mail.teclink.net>
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 08:38:51 +0000
To: djgpp AT delorie DOT com
From: bas AT mail DOT teclink DOT net
Subject: Re: Ideas for DJGPP.

At 08:40 AM 12/2/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, Erik Max Francis wrote:
>> 
>> > Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> >
>> > > Can you please tell in detail what are the issues that make DJGPP
>> > > confusing for a newcomer?  Thanks.
>> >
>> > Most beginning are confused by command-line interfaces and a lack of an
>> > integrated development environment.
>> 
>> You mean, those of them who don't want to know anything about the
>> compiler are confused when they need to actually learn how it should
>> be called? ;-)
>
>With all respect for you guys, it's easy to to forget how confusing learning
>C can be. If you cut your teeth on C64 assembler as a kid and moved on to
>Turbo Pascal as a teenager, learning C is a breeze. It's also easy to learn
>it as a CS major, with lots of feedback from friends and costudents, and
>access to the right books, but picture this: 
>
>you're an earnest kid, you wanna learn C, you haven't the faintest
>idea of what the difference is between a compiler,linker,or preprocessor,
>you have only the foggiest idea of what the difference is between a header
>file and a C file, and your buddies don't even know (and don't care) what
>"C" is (so they can't help you out); you didn't know that libraries
>have to be linked if their header file's functions are used; you
>have no idea that including a header file twice without the usual 
>#ifndef __SHIT_H_ stuff will lead to loads of errors ...
>
>And believe me, most beginner's books on C are no help in such matters;
>they usually assume QuickC or Turbo C, and all you need to do to get
>a program to compile and run is a simple Ctrl-F9 or so. Libraries
>are automatically linked, dependencies are pre-checked, error reports place
>the cursor on the offending line ... most beginner's books *assume* all 
>this and *don't* tell you all the stuff we all take for granted now.
>
>So I don't think it's silly when a beginner to C faithfully types in the
>example prog from the book and can't get it to compile under djgpp,
>and is confused by cryptic messages like "dpmi host not found", "MK_FP
>undefined function","cannot run 16-bit program" etc. Would you blame
>him/her for preferring Turbo C which lets you get on with learning the
>language without all that extra crap?
>
>Rhide is an excellent step in the direction of making djgpp beginner-friendly,
>but guys, don't mock newbies who find the command line environment
>confusing because it *is*.
>
>Elliott.
>
Well, I'm about as new to c programming as you can get, and I've never had
any problems using djgpp.  The only programming experience I've had is a
little basic on my old apple2.  i think most problems newbies have can
easily be solved just by reading faq and such.  Hell, I figured out
everything just by reading the readme.1st.  And if a 15 year old lamer can
figure it out, I dont see why anybody else couldn't either.
"I'm going to live forever or die trying"
Digital Hippie
http://home.teclink.net/~bas/home/